Whiteboard as context (= information) – how to use this 'insight' in Fibery?

hey there :wave:

I am new here, and happy to see such a kind of innovative platform/tool, that really takes things to a conceptual level, and – obvious from some peeking around – such a genuine, vibrant and forward thinking community…

… with that said, let me come to my first question after giving some background of where I am coming from:
I am looking for a multi-modal, multi-level PKM. I have been at other ‘solutions’ always disappointed at some point about a shallow integration of different levels / modalities. so I left behind Heptabase and Scrintal, and shy away from the approach of Obsidian, which is too garage-kit for my easily distractable, semi-technical mind. I really envy Capacities in what it does in intelligent system integration – but it is ostensibly not on the path to deeply include spatio-logical and / or schematic representation…

… so here I am. :-). Hoping. And I see a lot of thorough systems architecturing, while also noticing the branding effort is currently not in the PKM field…

… nevertheless let me ask about this, or make this ‘a point’.
In a way it´s very simple. And only relies on 2 preconditions:

  1. I really believe in the ‘insight creation’ focus of Fibery; and in this regard what really ‘pushed a button’ for me was a part in Michaels introductory presentation stating that restoring the context’ is a central form of insight building

  2. when working on a conceptual / creative / re-combinatory field – where PKM is situated; … but so are many other productive processes – then *inclusion of an entity into a space / whiteboard is an information

thus my question (possibly: request): how can Fibery inform me of the relevant contexts (= whiteboards) an entity is included in? And how can I sculpt / read out this kind of information within the (great) info architecture that Fibery is providing?

Very much looking forward to discover the details here, as this really seems to be the one initial stumbling block between me and and the Fibery system.
– So, thx for anyone bothering to inform me or point me in the right direction(s)! :pray: :sunflower:

Can you give a a concrete use case? What exact workflow do you need?

Welcome to the community!
If I got you right, you want to know at what Whiteboards some entity exists. Now it is not possible, unfortunately. It will be interesting to know why you need it?

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thanks both!

the ‘answer’ is the following:
the whiteboard for me is / should be the central start- and endpoint for forming (‘visualizing’) relevant constellations in an information-rich ‘conceptual space’ – underpinned by the databases and informationally structured (sub-)entities.

an entity in my work scenario thus is also a ‘building block’, or alternatively a kind of an ‘archive item’, part of a ‘conceptual repertoire’ as long as it exists in its database (see my reference to the other PKMs, which work on similar principles nowadays). as such, these blocks (entities) then ‘come to life’ and into relevance when I place them into a new / extended topical field of association (= whiteboard).

this is where I (mainly) work: placing items into constellations. :sparkles:
– and I think this principle is true for a lot of scenarios that are mainly deailing in / with creative processes as form of production.

– in such a scenario really ‘knowing’ the relevance, finally the ‘meaning’ of an entity is this: an iterative process of continued re-use and association in different constellations and new associations. it is a getting to know potential relevancies of an item – while the multiple (re-)uses recursively enrich and in a way build the (value of) the building blocks / entities.

so, to know where an entity ‘lives’ or becomes ‘relevant’ in the many context(s) represented by my whiteboards (my base reference planes) is the process of ‘insight creation’ and ‘knowledge refinery’ I am after. :grinning:

as said, I see this as a showcase example of the ‘restoring the context’ principle highlighted as one of the examples of ‘insight creation’ and core characteristics of Fibery presented in the video reference.
… ‘only’ that in my case the whiteboard is such a possible relevant context to be ‘(re-)found’ – so it´s not ‘only an illustration’ post ante but a primary and original context of active association / work:cherry_blossom: :lotus:

what I want – given the scenario of associative / creative work – is a work and knowledge flow where the very information that something was brought on a particular whiteboard (made meaningful in an additional context) ‘trickles back’ into the overall system of insight creation.
so, in a way I want ‘feedback’ from whiteboards and treating them as a constitutive (part of the) work context.

I have many practical use cases / examples, like:
• in what brainstorm session did this entity appear?!
• in what publication / exhibition project did, say, a concept make its appearance alongside an image entity?!
• to what semantic fields / meaning domains / Idealized Cognitive Models does this entity potentially belong? what (longer term) ‘concept maps’ include these entities?
• what idea sketch made use of these entities?
• etc.

– hope I could make it clearer, resp illustrate what I am after… ?! :thinking: :rabbit2: :chipmunk:

PS:
I guess the ‘technical’ / architectonic question in the context of Fibery terminology / logic is: can there be an ‘entity – whiteboard’ relation?

… as in my case (and I think a lot of other thinkable ones working via creative / conceptual association) the whiteboard itself is a kind of ‘heterogenuous database’

… if that makes sense to you :slightly_smiling_face:

If I understand you correctly, you’re saying that the presence of an entity on a whiteboard provides some additional context, but I would argue that merely placing an entity on a whiteboard doesn’t tell you much.
When an entity card on a whiteboard is shown as connected to other cards on that whiteboard, then potentially some additional context is present, but these links exist whether or not the entities are visualised on a whiteboard (in the form of relations, as can be seen on entity view).
In the same way, using e.g. a board view with columns to show what state an entity is in does not add context beyond what already exists - the entity is already in one state or another
i.e. the existence of a view does not add context.

hey @Chr1sG ,

thx for your take, and weighing in!

– I see where you are coming from. :grinning:

… but, I would say – and actually the whole case is about that: in the context of the different landscapes of knowledge management and organizational processes existing: it depends.

The critical question is indeed taken up by your contribution – though I´d have a different answer: Does the presence of an entity on a whiteboard provide additional context, or do the links between entities exist regardless of ‘visualization’ (which I would call ‘mapping’, or ‘association’)?

in this context, it depends on where the knowledge generation (about links) is done, really. Plus, I´d say ,the world at large – especially when viewed through an ecological or relational lens – isn’t constrained to a database model, or to entitites with pre-defined attributes. I´d also say, this challenge universally applies to existing methods of contemporary knowledge or value production. Certainly in the fields I am in (media production; mapping and working with transcultural knowledges; creative research; discourse production)

In contexts like stock inventory management, database (entity) models with fixed attributes are valid and effective. However, this isn’t the case for every scenario. When structuring and building links on a whiteboard—during brainstorming sessions, narrative constructions, or mapping systems of relationships—the dynamic fundamentally shifts. Here the attributes originate, thrive and often live on whiteboards, not in tables, really. Here, whiteboards are not a visualization of something else. They are the plane / medium of production and relational work in the first place. Here, entities are re-modelled, iterated, productively differentiated and their (new) relations come into existence.

Also, whoever works in meetings and work groups knows, one of the foremost techniques of capturing (explicit and implicit) social knowledge about relations, and feed them ‘into the system’ is doing a mapping session.

In all this, the whiteboard isn’t merely for visualizing pre-existing entities. It´s also for registering or constructing relations in the first place. (This is the whole basis of the existence of whiteboard apps for the bussiness world, like Miro etc.).

If you want to go beyond the examples and contexts already cited / given, consider ecosystem analysis, for instance. In this field also, entities are not defined by fixed attributes but by their multiple potential relations. Everything becomes a type of environment, where the mapping of potential relations is central to understanding and specifying entities. Attributes and relations are identified within these mappings, mirroring the processes integral to ecosystems. Attributes (values) equal relations in ecosystems.
And also, by extension, this is true for cultural and social fields, meanhwile by the way. See things like ecosystem service evaluation, but also designing full-scale service ecosystems, circular economy product development, social design, audience development, etc.

Thus, this paradigm transcends into many business scenarios, particularly where narratives, scripted media productions, or sociocultural mappings are involved. It reflects a shift towards seeing entities as co-defined by their relationships, which really is a perspective gaining prevalence across multiple ‘professional fields’.

So, the question I am having here: Is Fibery designed to represent this ecological and associative world(s) and their form of value production? (Value in the dual sense of bussiness value, but also the ‘values’ associated to a certain attribute and / or link or relation?

As you might see by now, for me and in my work experience the whiteboard is not a secondary visualization ex ante, but the working / association plane where I do the work of establishing / realizing ‘potential links’ (as you name it). This was true whether I was working around scripting media production so called ‘world building’, in creative research (academic or arts-related), mapping out ‘brain scripts’ (curation, education, outrreach), or mapping cultural and semantic domains (discourse mapping; social / transdomain knowledge management) , etc etc.

Unquestionably Fibery already offers extensive modeling capabilities, and internal feedforwards and feedbacks to turn implicit knowledge (foremost: relations) into explicit representation within the system. And up to here I was approaching Fibery from the assumptions that (almost) everything (every logic) that is relevant for processes of professional ‘value production’ can be modelled into it, and that the system is geared to use any activity in any part to be a potential source of insight generation.

But given these additional contexts and existing logics, for me understanding whether such associations and mappings I am dealing with can integrate into Fibery’s system is really, what this is about. So, my insertion isn’t about unduly stretching Fibery’s own aspirations or claims beyond its intentions. It’s about recognizing whether this kind of relational mapping and dynamic association falls within its capabilities. Or could, at some point.

And I think for those who find that this ecological and associative approach defines their work, clarity on this front is possibly a vital for the question of adoption, resp. system alignment. As I am convinced by my own professional experiences, that a lot of processes in institutions / organizations by now consist of such creative mapping and associating open contexts.

@lerone What I understand from you, is that you suggest that the Whiteboard feature in Fibery could be enhanced to exhibit functionality akin to a graph view.

This has been discussed before from different angles. I have proposed it a year ago when I started with Fibery, but at that time the response was that the need was not apparent enough. Maybe the proponents of WhiteBoard with automatic Graph View capability can now start giving real world use cases that make more clear how it would support the current product strategy.

Here are some related discussions:

hey @Yuri_BC ,
thanks for the connecting impulse! Appreciate that.
I am myself always after keeping discussions organic in forums – and here I am surely the ‘uninitiated’ newbie (which is why I started this as a question :smiling_face:).

As to the ‘translation’ you are giving, I am not sure, though.

In a way, what I propose is very simple – even if the rationale, I felt, needs some explaining / framing (therefore my long texts).
But: It is not an automated graph as in Obsidian (or InfraNodus, or DiagramGPT,…)– which really is a secondary visualization of what is described on the underlying note / metadata level (– see the argument about secondary visualization vs. primary plane of associative + creative work above; and see @Chr1sG in a way making an argument on the basis of this ‘secondary visualization’ misunderstanding (– if I am allowed to call it a misunderstanding :pray: –), and my argument for giving the whiteboard and making connections on it some more ‘constitutional’, ‘authorial’ status).

Actually, while being a very visually oriented person when it comes to knowledge work, I like others came to the conclusion that an automated graph view (especially the global ones) doesn´t really bring anything new to the table in most situations.
So, in a sense I am really arguing for the opposite, that is an interactive schematization, visual nevertheless, that can be actively manipulated in the course of knowledge work (I strongly believe in enactivist, constructive knowledge philosophies…). If one can´t interact with it, it is rarely ‘knowledge’… (Here I concur w/ the sentiment voiced by @njyo in the context of one of the graph discussions you referenced: Fibery for knowledge management, what I desire - #3 by njyo )

What I simply expected – and what I want – is a way to register on entity level every instance / act of an entity being placed / created on a whiteboard. This is not what is happening in Obsidian around the graph. And – in difference to the auto-graphs of Obsidian and the like – I am understanding a whiteboard as something that indeed can be constructed and played around with by the users (any idiosyncratic mapping they ‘come up’ with, because of … whatever relevancy they ascribe to the cluster for whatever professional reason).

But really – and this is where a lot of my looong text writing comes from – it is about a kind of 180° swap vis-a-vis things like automated graph representations and generally secondary visualization post factum
– Looking through your links, there is indeed one which really is talking about exactly the same thing. and in a very concise manner; and already in 2021! (– so thank you for making me aware of that! :pray:).

It´s @rothnic who wrote it up in a lucid paragraph:

There are systems/business modeling languages (SysML, BPMN) that implement structured visual modeling concepts that do define explicit and reusable relationships. So, with these systems, you are building the model visually, which is then turned into a database under the hood that can be queried, generate reports, etc. With Fibery and other general-purpose tools you are modeling the relationships and entering the data more directly, then generating visualizations from that database. So it is generally coming at this from the opposite direction.

[ … … just, that I would add: I am also not sure when talking about canvasses, whiteboards etc, we are at all remaining in the conceptual space of ‘graphs’ and ‘trees’ in their stricter logical and technical sense. – This is why I rather use the terms ‘concept map’ and ‘graphical model’, ‘idealized cognitive model’ etc.
This is a discussion much to deep & broad to get into here.… but let me, as a shorthand say / claim, the latter are more attuned / derived from human understanding, they are less strictly ‘logical’ (but organized around – open – domains of interaction and potential / associative linkages, used in complex reasoning tasks rather than in secondary visualization of underlying data structures, they (potentially) accommodate diverse data types, depend on context and conceptual decisions (‘cuts’ / assertions / suppostions),… All in all: what I am more after are associative conceptualizations from the human side feeding into the system, rather than the system giving me derived, secondary visualizations of what is already in there…

like:

… but this would go too far into the field of theory… :racehorse: ]


Now, if we are talking about Obsidian it is interesting that the largest ‘bang’ it made in the last say 2 years is through the introduction of the Canvas. This is exactly the paradigm shift I am talking about: from automated systems visualization to schematization on a spatial / visual level by the users.
And here we are getting closer to the skin of the game. As the Canvas is a Whiteboard that can be freely and associatively be constructed by the users. It is linked up with / hooked into the ‘underlying’ system of notes and their metadata. Now, the community exactly has a discussion about the question whether and how links drawn on the Canvas – made there always for a reason – should translate back into the core system, especially the backlinks.
In the realm of PKM / Canvas / Notetaking platforms there are different tribes, some believing that all relations from the Canvas should be mirrored in the basic linkage structure; some believing that there should be both ‘visual’ links and harcoded links, somehow…; and some (a minority believes) the links on the Canvas (Whiteboard) basically don´t matter systematically, they are just a visual cue…
You also find this discussion differentiating the orthodoxy and tribes of Scrintal and Heptabase (the other 2 biggies in Canvas-Card-PKMs). Scrintal for hardcoding. Hepta not so much.

So, this discussion really is fully raging in this sector. And having real effects.
I found Fibery, and loved the conceptual avantgarde approach, thus thinking / expecting all that should be possible by choice within it.

Also, I tried to specify some use contexts (maybe almost a dozen up to now) which all have a tally of process logics involved, and thus – with only little elaboration – lead to the ‘real world use cases’ you mention. I just didn´t want to make things longer than they already are, and thought mentioning the scenarios is enough. (Also, I am shying away from really tailoring this to any ‘current product strategy’ … for different reasons: from not being deep in the field adressed (AIUI) – to simply wanting to express my own professional needs, and getting to the ‘insight discovery’ logics involved…)

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@lerone I think my previous post might have given the wrong impression, so I’ll try to restate it.
If a user adds items to the whiteboard, and then makes connections between them on the whiteboard, these connections will show up in the relation fields for the entity. Whiteboard relation arrows and relation field links are two different representations of the same thing.
It doesn’t matter if you make a link in entity view and then show it on a whiteboard, or if you link two entities on the whiteboard and then see this link on entity view.

This is what I meant when I wrote that the links exist whether or not the entities are visualised on a whiteboard, but I should have also added that these links exist whether they were created on a whiteboard or not.

I think the problem actually comes down to the difference between ‘structured’ and ‘unstructured’ relations, which you hinted at in your replies.
It is only possible to link two items on the whiteboard using a ‘relation arrow’ if the databases that the two entities you are linking have a pre-defined relationship.

It sounds like your needs are for more ad-hoc linking on whiteboards (maybe akin to mentions in rich text, where anything can point to anything else). This is actually possible using regular arrow connections, but these arrow connections do not represent structured relation links, so do not show up in entity view.
And in an even ‘weaker’ form of connection, you are arguing that the mere presence of two items on the same whiteboard is a context that should be accessible when viewing an entity in other ways (i.e. entity view).

As it stands, I don’t think Fibery is going to get to where you want it to be any time soon.
When someone creates a view, they are effectively querying the database(s)/entity(ies) and determining what to show based on the response. Similarly, edits made via a view will result in update messages being sent to the database(s)/entity(ies) to inform what changes need to be made.

If, for example, a view is deleted, this does not result in any message needing to be sent - a view is only a visualisation/editing tool, there is no need to notify the back end that the view is no longer in use.

Accordingly, the underlying tech does not easily support (or need) the concept of an entity having a full record of all the places (views) where it is visualised.

@Chr1sG – thanks a lot!
That is all a helpful clarification and addition, really.

Also, I admittedly was carried a little ahead of my original argument by the two insertions on automatic graphs, and the ideas of secondary visualization ('just visualizing…).
And as a result I actually also started talking about registering links in the attribute values of entities. That was not even what I was after in my original question here, which was just about registering the pure presence of an entity on a whiteboard per se.
But still, and as it came up: that registering of links made on whiteboards is of course also part of the bigger question and context here.

So…

1. Registering links on whiteboard:
I was actually quite impressed to find Fibery already came around implementing a way ‘relation’ links can be registered in principle. So the difference btw ‘connection line’ and ‘relations link’ on the boards is already quite something. (Though the documentation about all this seems a little jittery, like the presence of the shift click as input…).
Here I wouldn´t ‘complain’, and am really convinced by what Fibery already offers.
(– Though I was almost stepping up to ask / propose whether this function of board linking could be further refined, e.g. in the case where I have several options / fields for relevant entity attibutes being related to the same fundamental database…)
So that is that, and it is quite good, if rough at the edges…

2. The ‘virtuality of views’ vs. ‘real presence’ + context inclusion as information
This really is what I am struggling with. As you rightfully identify, what I mainly want / need is a way to register in an entity that it is present in a whiteboard view. As, in my kind of work, the whiteboard / map itself constitutes an additional context / information.
Translated into the discussions of other PKMs mentioned, it is common sense now within the Obsidian community that placement of a card on a board constitutes a link. Other PKMs also give you this information about a card being placed on different boards – because it is relevant.
So, this is the real kernel of this request. And it maybe technically comes down to equate presence on a view in general with a link, or a potential (optional) ‘link information’.
I would think this is quite easy technically. But I also see there are conceptual blocks here, as Fibery sees / conceptualizes views as ‘just a window on…’, and not as a work or informational context or operation in itself.
But really, I think knowing an entity is not only on a whiteboard, but also seeing on entity level which kanban boards an entity is on, where it is operationalized (or not) just gives so much valuable information… So, this seems the gist of it. And I think it is just a question of capturing all the (potentially) insightful info that is already within the system anyways.
It just needs a switch from seeing views as totally ephemeral and inconsequential ‘windows’ to see them as potential contextual info (of different sorts).
And all this could / should of course be an option to be taken by users in configuration of the entities, and not be forced. But that is the Fibery philosophy anyways, if I get it right here…

So, this is it.
Thanks again for elaborating and caring for clarity here, @Chr1sG . :hand_with_index_finger_and_thumb_crossed: :heart_hands:

Hi @lerone and welcome to the Fibery forum and right away with such an interesting discussion! :slight_smile:

I have a simple mind, and so I definitely am not sure that I understood everything you are describing, but one thing I think I understood is:

You want to see which Whiteboards an Entity is embedded on.
Is that correct?

Entities do have a field that shows Referenced x times, which shows the Entities, where a link has been placed. If I gather correctly, you would like to also see the Whiteboards listed there.

Would that solve one of your challenges?

Warning: Potential Thread Hijack :speak_no_evil:

(Happy to move this into a different thread)

The other interesting idea that your discussion triggered for me (alongside with this one on Whiteboards):

Certain aspects of specifications have rather structured data, I usually handle this through text tables. So if we take for example specs for:

  • Data Objects
  • UI Screens
  • API Calls
  • Reports

All these make a nice table with rich text and Entity references. One could argue that this could be a Table View, but that will be too limiting.

Instead, what I would LOVE to be able to do is to add a Rich Text Field with a Schema Table. This could be a different type, or an extension of the existing table. The gist would be that I can define a column (or row) to be schematised in the sense that any mentioned Entity of a given Type automatically gets connected through a ordinal relationship. So the schema of the column (or row) specifies how the mention gets connected.

Maybe an example helps, looking at a UI screen spec

  • A Screen has multiple Components
  • Each Component will display one type of Data Objects (one or more)
  • Each Component will also have Actions, UI Strings, etc.

As such, a Screen Entity could have a table (e.g. User Profile):

Component Data Object Description Actions
#Nav Header - Standard navigation header See Component
#Breadcrumbs - Standard breadcrumbs bar See Component
#User Profile Card #User Displays the key user details: Pics, name, email Click Edit#Edit Profile Screen
#Action Bar - Other actions that can be taken on the page Click Change Email#Change Email Screen, #Delete Account#Delete Account Screen

In the above table I used # to indicate all Entity Mentions. Each of the columns would be configured as follows:

  • Component: Any mention links this Screen Entity to a Component Entity (n-n)
  • Data Object: Any mention links this Screen Entity to a Data Object Entity (n-n)
  • Actions: Any mention links this Screen Entity to a Screen Entity (n-n)

Of course, all these Relationships would have to first be configured on the Entity level.

Overall, this would allow for a more rich text and a more dynamic blend between structured and unstructured data. It would also allow me to hide a way a number of Views, as I now can dynamically generate some of these tables.

Again, sorry if this message side-tracks the thread. :speak_no_evil:

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thanks so much for this @njyo!

very much appreciate it, and it does indeed a) clarify (simplify :sweat_smile:) and b) extend / deepen ‘the issue’. which is indeed a complex one –especially for non software- and network-architects like me…

so, you got me blushing two times:
one, for getting right to the core.

You want to see which Whiteboards an Entity is embedded on. Is that correct?
Entities do have a field that shows Referenced x times, which shows the Entities, where a link has been placed. If I gather correctly, you would like to also see the Whiteboards listed there. Would that solve one of your challenges?

– correct! yes, it would splash my main concern. (– plus, I didn´t know about the ‘referenced x times’. thx for bringing that up also.)

second time you red-faced me was by linking to a thread that asks (proposes) the very same thing, and is preceding my inquiry some days… :laughing: – I didn´t find that at the time, so am sorry to have ‘forked’ this:smiling_face:

then, Schema Tables
yeah! If I understand this correctly (as, again, I am coming from content / concept work contexts not real systems architectures), this would be fabulous.
And indeed I´d see that as on topic, given the extended version of it here in the thread.
For one, it really sounds like another extension of representing complex relational logics into entities themselves, making them even richer…
… and then, I think – again, if I understand correctly –, it brings some thing to the table (sic!) that was certainly part of my thinking, elaborations and musings: it sounds like it is a data-table like ‘device’ to represent heterogeneous relations of entities in one complex field; like a matrix.
this is important, as basically the ‘conept maps’ I am talking about (or however one wants to call the visual modelling plane, aka 'whiteboard) are sheets visualizing / registering / establishing heterogeneous relations between entities. (so in my current working example a ‘concept’ (entity) could be simultaneously linked to: ‘parent concepts’, ‘lateral (sibling) concepts’, ‘children’, … but also to ‘paradigms’, ‘issues’ etc.

so many heads up for you clarifying and enriching all this, with some nice (but unnecessary :blush:) modesty on top…! :owl: :lotus:

PS: and, excuse me producing so much ‘discourse’ around it, and extending to all the rather private methodological, philosophical, cognitive models that I am covered in… but, actually, just the addition of this idea of ‘schema tables’ seems to have made all this worth it for me! :pray: :chipmunk:

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Hey @lerone, all good, no need to be apologetic, it’s a good discussion! :slight_smile:

Glad that part one became clear about list of references for Whiteboards too. No harm in a second thread.

And yes, I like your term of Complex Fields that allow us to weave together rich text with schematised Relations. :slight_smile:

Thanks for eliciting that! Now I just have to hope that @mdubakov, @Chr1sG and team see the value in that too! :wink:
It would definitely be another significant leg up compared to the competition, even if there may be some complexity in the implementation. I do think, however, that the whole Highlights work may actually be quite in line with this. :crossed_fingers:

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… have still to get my heads around the Highlights; but thanks for making another connection to the larger scene here, @njyo !
Certainly, and in tune with the video about it, it’s all about increasing that ‘signal’ density and the quality of the system internal signal-system.

The other thing I wanted to mention as well in line with the complex fields and the search index is the extension that I wish to be able to do when choosing to Exclude databases from search is:

Rather than just toggle search ability on/off, I want to be able to:

  1. Turn it Onn for everywhere
  2. Turn it on for in this space only
  3. Turn it on for specific other databases only
  4. Turn it off

As for my spec example above, I may generally not need to be able to search doe my Components, but in the UI Design Space or specific databases.

Hope that makes sense. Thanks!

wow – sparks a lot of potential to sculpt the interaction space between complex text/table level and a visual configuration plane, it seems to me.
I´d love to experience such options for a finegrained and -customized ‘backside’ set-up (for me text is the ‘backside’, a lot of times :smile:) – and then ‘play it out’ on the visual plane in a schema board (whiteboard)…

– also saying that bec of @Chr1sG interesting remark about the textual-people and the vision-people ‘at odds’ in thinking, practice & vision.
This kind of an example (+ thinking) is where I would see the ‘two cultures’ cross roads potentially, and grow together…

I´d love to see something like this. Certainly vision inducing.
Just not sure the visual interaction plane is currently on top of the agenda, given Fibery´s current concentration, which you pointed to…